Developed Lymphedema After Having Lymph Nodes Removed

Posted by Vivienne on 11/13/2008

Hello Ted,
Thank you for contributing so much wonderful information to the Earth Clinic site.

Please could you possibly help me? I developed Lymphedema after having lymph nodes removed from my pelvis in 1989. I massage daily and wear support hose during the day and special low stretch bandages at night. My left leg is 30% larger than my right, the swelling is mostly from the knee to buttock area and pubic mound, there is also minimal edema in my right ankle. The swelling results in cellulitus once every 6 weeks or so, which is why I take the 7-Keto DHEA to boost my immune system, it has not completely stopped the cellulitis, but makes it much less severe.

For the swelling I take:
Horse Chestnut 300 mg 2 x day
Rutin 500 mg 1 x day
Triple Chlorophyll 60 mg 1 x day
Alfalfa 2000 mg x 2 day
Vit C 1000 mg x 1 day
7-Keto DHEA 100 mg 3 x day

Since reading the earth clinic site, I am now also taking ACV 2 tbsp., 2 x day, VCO 1 tbsp., 2 x day, Blackstrap Molasses 1 tbsp., 2 x day and a Cayenne & Garlic capsule 1 g garlic/500mg Caynne. But I have not been doing this long enough to see a result.

I tried the Molasses because I am often constipated, and since surgery, find it difficult to urinate sometimes. The molasses did what they were meant to!

Do you know of anything that can help with the lymphatic swelling and the resulting deficient immune system?

Thank you very much ... Kob-khun-mark!

Replied by Ted
Bangkok, Thailand
12/01/2008
384 posts

I am personally against removal of any organs because the resultant effects are often more severe down the road. In any event the removal of lymph node could have been avoided if potassium citrate, camphor, and sodium bicarbonate were supplemented or perhaps the use of castor oil hot packs (with camphor added) to assist lymphatics clearance. Quite often high protein diets, high heavy metals, thick plasma (where clotting sometimes occur), excessive virus, vitamin C sodium ascorbate and bacteria buildup are common ones that clogs the lymphatic system. I agree bandages is useful also as is raising legs higher may help a little.

Anyway even with such removal, there might be some lymph nodes leftover but is obstructed or the veins has to overtake the missing lymphatic system. In this case, a removal of lymphatics will result in excessive fluids along the veins, called venous insufficiency, where excessive fluids accumulate. When this happens, pine bark extract is often used as a supplement to reduce this issue.

While it is true that DHEA does indeed help reduce the cellulite, some people prefer DHEA, or other people prefer 7 Keto DHEA. It all depends on the result. Some people have low hormones of the other and DHEA would work well there. However, some has sufficient hormones with exception of DHEA, so 7 keto DHEA will work for him.

There are other cellulite reducing supplements besides DHEA, although DHEA is best known, but I have found quite a few of the others, namely taurine, l-carnosine (500 mg x 3)are the best ones I know of, along with chromium supplements. Most chromium, if they are water soluble worked fairly well, I used chromium chloride to save costs compared to chromium picolinate for example. The dose of taurine is taken 30 minutes to an hour before every meals, such as 2000 mg. This will prevent negative reactions between sugar and proteins, which result in cellulite. Chromium further lowers blood sugar spikes and the common dose I used to get result is about 1000 mcg, chewed, or powdered, dissolved in a glass of water.

It should be noted that in event the blood becomes too thick, the ability for the blood to flow back through tehe veins is obstructed. This is true for high fat products, sugar, and acid forming foods. The diet is replaced with high enzyme foods, such as raw vegetarians and enzyme supplements taken three times a day. In this case, EDTA is important, but I prefer a much lower dose of EDTA, in the form of disodium EDTA as means of reducing blood obstruction and lower the blood thickness so if the blood is a bit more watery, the ability of blood flow and plasma is not hampered. EDTA also removes certain free heavy metals that tends to cause the blood to be thicker. It is also true of high fats, high sugar, high fructose, and high protein diets. However certain amino acid is useful such as carnosine and taurine.

Estrogen is the major problem causing cellulite, and perhaps natural progesterone cream will keep the ratios of progesterone: estrogen in check, such as applying on the area might also help.

Some vitamin E is also useful in reducing blood thickness that prevents blood clotting as is also true that magnesium is antagonistic to calcium and may also help. The other supplements that also reduce some cellulite is the alpha lipoic acid, taken along with food to prevent stomach upset. It also helps if plenty of water is taken to further reduce this problem.

Chlorophyll tends to give the body more blood, so its a matter of debate whether that helps or not. However, chlorella is a heavy metal chelator and may reduce obstruction by further helping the circulation. Fluid retention is the other thing that caused it, so diuretic products may further help if taken in moderation such as green tea. Some other things that reduce kidney obstruction from uric acid, or if body is a little high in uric acid may lead further to swollen legs. In this case a very low dose of lithium citrate or lithium carbonate such as 5 mg may help the body rid of excess fluids. Some additional taking of potassium citrate (technical name is tripotassium citrate) taken at 1/4 teaspoon plus 1/2 teaspoon of sodium carbonate may help normalized bowel movements, especially the potassium and if more frequently it is taken, the stool becomes more fluid, thus reducing the fluid retention that way.

The major enemy in the cause of fluid retention has always been the chlorinated water. It works by increasing the blood pressure, due to its effect on the body to cause metabolic acidosis. It works like this, whenever there is a free chlorine in the blood that comes through taking shower, the free chlorine dissociates to react with the free hydrogen that is involved in the NAD to NADH, to form HCl, or hydrochloric acid deep within the mitochrondria involved in the Krebs cycle. So this reduces the mitochrondrial activity. I suspect the same reaction to also occur in presence of Fluoride. This doesnt happen with iodine because it's a required mineral. This also explains why legs are swollen or the body becomes much more swollen after swimming in highly chlorinated water as well as being fluoridated from the public water supply.

This also explains why people feel much weaker after the shower. It's the effect of chlorine interfering with the mitochrondria that helps with our energy level. If energy level is low, the ability of the body to maintain normal fluids is not possible, so the body becomes highly retentive with fluids. Therefore chlorine and fluoridated toothpaste has to be removed. Any thing that disturbs the neuroendocrine system, includes hydrocarbons, and aspartame. Aspartame in presence of body's enzyme converts into a free methanol alcohol so that's avoided, because further oxidation it becomes formaldehyde and results in fluid imbalance from destruction of the neural centers responsible for equilibrium of body fluids -its the line of communications that tells each organs what to do becomes impaired in presence of them.

In any event, I think disodium EDTA, at 25 mg x 3 mixed with plenty of water (maybe taken for a couple of days, out of a week such as 3 or 4 days), and taking plenty of enzyme supplements taken three times a day before every meal should help most the circulation, Enzymes help digest obstructions and foreign pathogens which tends to cause the clogging of the lymph node, while prevention cellulite formation is helped mostly with taurine, DHEA, alpha lipoic acid.

Certain dietary changes to more vegetarian less protein, but taking some amino acid supplements instead, less fat, less sugar, and less exposure to fluoride, aspartame and chlorine should generally help the most. Diuretics such as green tea, lithium citrate for example are helpful in reducing fluid retention, but lithium further removes excess uric acid that obstructs normal kidney functions too.

Water suana, without chlorine, and hence sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator, one size rice grain of the crystals mixed in a liter of water may also help reduce fluid retention. Initially the sodium thiosulfate will cause watery stool, but once the body get used to it after usually three days, it will further neutralize the negative effects of chlorinated water from showers.

Apple cider vinegar should add some baking soda, such as 2 tablespoons of apple cider viengar plus 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda in 1 glass of water for example. The body tends to swell when eating mushrooms of any kind, including reishi mushrooms as well as many yeast fermented product, such as yogurt. This includes wheat products too in swelling but whole rye and millet won't generally cause swelling. Antibiotics promote swelling because of the mycotoxins, since mycotoxins and antibiotics are produced from fungus.

Ted

Replied by Vivienne
12/02/2008

Hello Ted.

Thanks so very much for your response, you have presented a wealth of information and your time and patience are both greatly appreciated.

There is so much information, however that Iím a little confused.

Firstly, I did not elect to have the surgery removing my pelvic lymph nodes, I did not know that they were removing them, or that there was a great possibility of the surgery incurring lymphedema.

Secondly, I am almost 56 years old, do the estrogen/cellulite creams apply to my case ... (I only have lymphedema, fortunately not cellulite too) I have tried certain anti-cellulite creams but my left leg is VERY big and the creams come small tubes which only last me a couple of days, I have used aromatherapy oils also. I actually find VCO is a "minor" help in softening the tissue. I have used castor oil packs too, but they do not seem to help at all, although the heat from the packs is comforting when I have major edema.

You state: "vitamin C sodium ascorbate and bacteria buildup" - I am taking Vitamin C, should I stop?

You state: pine bark extract - I took OPC (grapeseed), which I believe is very similar, for a year, with no discernable effect.

You state: taurine, l-carnosine (500 mg x 3), along with chromium supplements - am I meant to take all of these? On another website, I read: " if you take carnosine, you lose taurine and magnesium" http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21927

You state: enzyme supplements (I took bromelain 1 year - no effect) / disodium EDTA - 3 times per day, but how many mg? Also, where can I get this in the USA?

You state: lithium citrate or lithium carbonate such as 5 mg may help the body rid of excess fluids. potassium citrate taken at 1/4 teaspoon plus 1/2 teaspoon of sodium carbonate - If I am already taking the ACV and baking soda, do I need the lithium and potassium also? I found Lithium Carbonate without a prescription, but the mg are huge compared to your recommendation of 5mg http://www.drugstore.com/pharmacy/drugindex/rxsearch.asp?drug=Lithium+Carbonate Could you please advise? I also found Lithium Citrate syrup, 5mg, but this was available RX only.

Lithium Carbonate 150mg, Capsules
Ä Lithium Carbonate 300mg, Capsules
Ä Lithium Carbonate 600mg, Capsules
Ä Lithium Carbonate 300mg, Controlled Release Tabs
Ä Lithium Carbonate 450mg, Controlled Release Tabs
Ä Lithium Carbonate 300mg, Tablets

You state: vitamin E is also useful in reducing blood thickness that prevents blood clotting as is magnesium - do I take both of these too/how much?

You state: sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator - the same as one would put in an aquarium? is there a special kind to be ingested? Isnít this poisonous?

Finally You state: prevention cellulite formation is helped mostly with taurine, DHEA, alpha lipoic acid. Will this also help lymphatic blockage and/or congestion?

As I wrote before, I am currently taking, the following. You appear to agree with the KETO-7 DHEA (I read any other kind of DHEA might be dangerous). And you suggest that I switch from Chlorophyll to Chlorella which I will do). Do you think that the other supplements that I take are possibly helpful? Should I not take VCO, BSM and Cayene/Garlic?

Horse Chestnut 300 mg 2 x day
Rutin 500 mg 1 x day
Triple Chlorophyll 60 mg 1 x day
Alfalfa 2000 mg x 2 day
Vit C 1000 mg x 1 day
7-Keto DHEA 100 mg 3 x day

Since reading the earth clinic site, I am now also taking ACV 2 tbsp., 2 x day, VCO 1 tbsp., 2 x day, Blackstrap Molasses 1 tbsp., 2 x day and a Cayenne & Garlic capsule 1 g garlic/500mg Caynne.

I do not consume sweetened or carbonated drinks. The fats I consume are very few and I only cook with olive oil, I very rarely eat bread, if I do - only rye, I never put sugar or any sweeteners in my beverages, I avoid dairy products and mucous forming foods as much as possible. I bandage, massage, wear custom support hose daily, wipe my body down with ACV after showers and sleep with my leg elevated. I also avoid sitting where my circulation might be cut off and avoid lifting heavy weights...

At the rate Iím going the supplements will have to consist of my breakfast, there are so many! Again, thanks for your help, sorry for all the questions, but I feel certain that there IS somewhere, something that will make this lymphedema GO AWAY!!!!! Note, I do not say "my" lymphedema!


12/02/2008: Vivienne writes: "Hello Again...

I forgot to mention that I have also tried the following to no avail: vegetarianism, Stanley Burroughs Lemonade Detox diet, acupuncture, accupressure, lymphatic blend formulas for ingestion, cleavers, mastic, angelica, juniper, melissa, ginger, tamanu, oregano, ravinstara etc.... For external application. Thanks!"

Replied by Ted
Bangkok, Thailand
12/18/2008
384 posts

Somehow your email ended up in my spam mailbox. Sorry for late response...was deleting my spam mailbox!

Vitamin C is fine, what was meant there is it helps clear the bacterial buildup. Grapeseed seems to be weaker then the pinebark extract. When taurine is taken, carnosine and magnesium is also taken, so none is lost. I got my 250 mg of lithium carbonate and dissolved in one liter of soda water (carbonated water) to get lithium bicarbonate and take only 1/40 of that dose, to get 6.25 mg per dose. At 1/20 of dose it becomes 12.5 mg. The values between the two, It becomes a diuretic.

I am sure the leg by now is large, checking the hormones, may be major influence on large legs too. So balancing them I think is very helpful. Sometimes liposuction are the only answer if it in the extremes.

You state: vitamin E is also useful in reducing blood thickness that prevents blood clotting as is magnesium

Vitamin E is taken twice a week at 200 i.u. Magnesium is taken usually once a week at 500. Magnesium prevent calcium buildup which clogs the lymphatics. One new findings is d-mannose prevents bacterial buildup along lymphatics is possible. The dose is usually twice a day at 500 mg, and erythritol may also loosen bacterial buildup and helps clear lymphatics, usually 500 mg x 4.

You state: sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator - the same as one would put in an aquarium? is there a special kind to be ingested? Isnít this poisonous?

Fish dies in chlorinated water, but in humans is moderately toxic, only thiosulfate removes toxicity of chlorine, but also removes toxicity inside the body, and clears the body of oxidative chemical. It is also used in cyanide poisoning and is also used in people with liver and kidney problems, especially calcium blockages, where it is commonly blocked in lymph nodes. I used the sodium thiosulfate that is sold by chemical suppliers, but may also be available in aquarium, clearly labled, no coloring.

You state: prevention cellulite formation is helped mostly with taurine, DHEA, alpha lipoic acid. Will this also help lymphatic blockage and/or congestion?

Taurine, alpha lipoic acid, DHEA reduces fats so it works by clearing blockages caused by fat cells. Tyrosine is another one. Calcium also blocks, and magnesium displaces this as is alkalization reduce the tissue calcium that prevents lymph node blockages.

As I wrote before, I am currently taking, the following. You appear to agree with the KETO-7 DHEA (I read any other kind of DHEA might be dangerous).

This depends on how the body responds, whether it does or does not improve. Most of the problems appear to be taking at too large of a dose and taking it almost everyday. A woman's dose is about 12.5 mg. Some people do respond better to DHEA then Keto. It depends on the individual's chemistry. For example me, I respond better to DHEA because it increases my testosterone if I had a low one to begin with, and testosterone lowers fat in men. In woman a tiny amount may make a large differences on fat reductions too.

And you suggest that I switch from Chlorophyll to Chlorella which I will do). Do you think that the other supplements that I take are possibly helpful? Should I not take VCO, BSM and Cayene/Garlic?

VCO reduces constipation, which reduces toxic buildup. Cayenne is ok. it helps circulation. Chlorella is a chelator so it improves circulation by removal of free heavy metals that encourage blockages.

Since reading the earth clinic site, I am now also taking ACV 2 tbsp., 2 x day, VCO 1 tbsp., 2 x day, Blackstrap Molasses 1 tbsp., 2 x day and a Cayenne & Garlic capsule 1 g garlic/500mg Caynne.

Is fine, but I prefer to add baking soda to the ACV. Alkalization improves blockages.

I do not consume sweetened or carbonated drinks. The fats I consume are very few and I only cook with olive oil, I very rarely eat bread, if I do - only rye, I never put sugar or any sweeteners in my beverages, I avoid dairy products and mucous forming foods as much as possible. I bandage, massage, wear custom support hose daily, wipe my body down with ACV after showers and sleep with my leg elevated. I also avoid sitting where my circulation might be cut off and avoid lifting heavy weights...

One more thing, it helps not to eat a meals to early in the evening or late afternoon. Early dinner such as 4.00 p.m. helps prevent fat formation as the body does little exercise after 4 p.m.

At the rate Iím going the supplements will have to consist of my breakfast, there are so many! Again, thanks for your help, sorry for all the questions, but I feel certain that there IS somewhere, something that will make this lymphedema GO AWAY!!!!! Note, I do not say "my" lymphedema!

It's tough. I agree. A hot sauna around the leg may dissolve some fat too.

Ted

Replied by Joyce
Joelton, Tn
12/01/2008

I don't know of any magic potions for lymphedema but I wonder if Vivienne has considered acupuncture since it supposedly works by following the chi channels which I believe are considered the same as the lymph drainage system. The only other thing that comes to mind is something I recall reading about some woman who said that she saved her father's leg from being amputated by elevating and massaging it 2 or 3 times a day with EVCO. I don't know if this will help her or not but it definitely shouldn't do any harm to it. Of course good old niacin stimulates circulation and I do believe that lymph drainage has to be considered part of the circulatory system. Niacinamide will help stimulate the circulation but without so much of the flushing & tingling that makes a lot of newcomers to niacin think they are having an allergic reaction or stroke.

Replied by Ka
Washington State
06/01/2015

Ted, with all due respect, you seem to misunderstand much of Vivienne's post. First, she has Lymphedema, not venous insufficiency. Manual Lymphatic Drainage (MLD) 3x daily followed by wrapping should help to reduce the swelling. It sounds like Vivienne may already be doing this. For the sake of people new to LE: with MLD, Measure before and after about once a week to document the reduction in swelling. After a few weeks, you may want to use a customized compression garment daily if you are not already. For newbies, Support hose are not the same as a medical garment. There are also some night garments that you may find helpful such as a JoViPak. Some cases do better with a pump, too.

Heat is *absolutely contraindicated* for Lymphedema. No hot sauna!

Cellulitis (-not cellulite- LOL!! ) is very dangerous. With the antibiotics involved with that and since you seem to get it frequently, are you on a good probiotic? Also, how is the quality of your skin? Are you avoiding toxins (in lotions, creams as well as foods) ? Do you keep the skin clean and dry and well-moisturized? No razors/shaving, toxic hair removal creams, pedicures?

Do you use a rebounder or maybe do water aerobics? Both help to get the lymph moving.

There is a ton of info written for/by Lymphies at www.lymphnotes.com and http://nwlymphedemacenter.org

...I also have LE. I could write much more. Hope you can get some answers to help. You wrote your post a long time ago, but LE tends to stick around. (Of course, traditional medicine says no cure, but I don't agree! ;) There are also Facebook groups that offer support and ideas.

Take care, fellow Lymphie friend!